50 replies to this topic

[Therece]

 

. Then it changed last minute and to  top it all off "The Last" invalidates major parts of the story by saying Naruto was never serious about Sakura so as to not make Hinata look like a cheap silver medal. That just destroyed a major theme in the story on why Naruto made the POAL to Sakura, because he would never have made it if he WASN'T serious about h

I don't know why it's hard for some NaruSaku fans admit something contrary to their belief after 8 years...
Something like evil Pierrot/Editors  deceived Kishimoto into thinking Hinata was the queen of the universe and he was forced to make NH official.   Hinata was their favorite. But only in fillers and they have no power in manga.NH Possibility was open since chapter 437. This chapter come out in 2009. She have a descent ammount of popularity in West. SS already had a consolidated fanbase and popularity since Part 1. It's was simply more easy to him to take SS/NH  route. Kishi has no interest in romance so he let Pierrot wrote whatever they wants.

 

The Pool was destroyed in 469. Naruto wasn't chasing Sasuke for Sakura and at this point the PoaL become irrelevant to him and Sakura. Since this Chapter the Poal never was mentioned again like something important. So i believe everything related to the promess was addressed in this chapter.

 

 

 

Sasuke has shown mostly toxic abusive behavior towards Sakura, As anyone that has ever been in a toxic abusive relationship can attest to.

 

I agree in some points Sasuke and Sakura trying to kill each other was too much. But this negative moment wasn't enough to fade their Part 1 Popularity and original appeal to their fans. In part 1 i remember Sasuke was willing to die and give up his revange just to saver her against Gaara. If you think this moment has no importance for a Character like Sasuke or to SS Pairing.  SS/NH thinks the same about NaruSaku Moments and PoaL.

About the Abusive Argument of many Sakura/SS haters likes to use to diminish the SasuSaku and Sakura.
The main theme of Naruto was redemption. Just like how Naruto friendship is forever to Sasuke so was Sakura's loves to him...
Much of the SS problematic side is thanks to the Sasuke's traumas and journey as a final antagonist to fight Naruto in the end.
Just like ony other antagonist have problems with their relationships in this manga.
A Crazy psychopath like Gaara who threatened his own brothers. could never become a Kage of the same village he killed thousands.
Itachi abused and torture Kid Sasuke and is considered the "best" brother in manga.
Neji tried to kill and tortured Hinata and he died to protect her.
NejiHina was more famous than NH at the time in Japan. The same happened with worst people like Obito and Nagato.

Thats why i think hard to believe Kishimoto is stupid enough to call SS abusive/Toxic AFTER made them official. Since this will not only kitten on his two Main Characters but in his entire manga as well...
 

 

 

And by your "appeal to popularity logic", SS isn't the most popular pairing in Japan It Is Kakashi and Iruka so go ahead tell me Iruka should be married and show me a photo of  Iruka wearing a wedding dress and Kakashi in a groom suit. Go on.

 

If you can't admit the rival pairings development or scenes or believe in Kishi own words that the have planned the pairings since the Beginning (i don't believe too).

What's was left? Only Popularity.

Kakashi/Iruka is a yaoi crack shipping who become  popular out of nowhere because some japoneses like the concept of the Two Teachers having a gay relationship.  But you could see Kishimoto actually implemeting this on his manga without sounding ridiculous?
This isn't the same as SasuSaku/NaruHina/NaruSaku who are hetero pairings with declarations and scenes in manga.

Edited by Therece, 06 February 2023 - 02:42 AM.

[Therece]

You seem really dismissive of the Japanese and their importance to manga. Hell you refused to even spell 'Japanese' right. Naruto was written by a Japanese person with a Japanese cultural understanding of plot and writing. If you refuse to learn anything about how they write stories even when people are explaining it to you, can you at least understand that they do some things different there that the West doesn't do?

 

 

So you need to explain  this to Kishimoto/Jump/Pierrot/Producers since they betrayed your sacred  Japanese  law of writing Shonen since the beggining until the end...

 

He simply did so many mistakes filling SS/NH fans and the love Triangle + Hinata.This isn't the sacred "law" of the main pairing. Kishi could simply make something really simple/cliche like the Yusuke/Keiko thing who perfectly works in a shonen manga  and fits much better in your "law.

 

 

Edited by Therece, 06 February 2023 - 03:17 AM.

[ThroughWithLove]

 
Of course the forehead scene is important it literally shows us Sakura's biggest insecurity about herself and that Naruto likes that part about her! Yes she might hit him at first, but she is a tsundere she will at first get mad at him then show affection that's how those two work. It was also paralleled with how kushina fell in love with minato when naruto met his mother, which anyone can see if they paid attention and not dissmiss it as a NS fan theory! Heck sakura thinking that sasuke said it is the only reason why I think she could possibly like him, which just shows she has a false idea of what he is like and that naruto is the ideal guy for her. 
 
Naruto was most likely to confess his feelings to sakura after he recused sasuke, but even then he confirmed to sai that he does love sakura so it should of been obvious at that point how he feels about her. The only problem with the NaruSaku confession is that we don't get a follow up to it, because it was clear that the part about not caring about sasuke was false however that doesn't mean what she said about loving him wasn't a lie and was actually the part of the confession that was true. Could it have been handled better yeah sure, but it is not as bad as fans made it out to be, which mainly end up being mostly nh and ss because it fits their agenda and narrative. Heck naruto doesn't seem that mad with sakura afterwards and even said she was his girlfriend to his dad when he asked about that. 

Frankly the ss and nh confession aren't really that impressive when you think about it. Hinata's was a suicide charge that nearly got her killed and even she admitted that she was being selfish. While I have already said that the SS feels more like a rejection, as Sakura is desperately trying to get sasuke to stay but like sasuke says she is not like him and doesn'y truly understand him and calls her annoying, heck the same thing in 693 and after that their is no way they should of gotten together after that.

The reason that we never got to see a second narusaku confession was because kishimoto gave up and listened to his editors and did bad writting to make ss and nh to be canon rather than NaruSaku. But if you won't listen to me why not hear what Chatte has to say about the confession which you can find on the video 24 minutes in https://www.youtube....oLKlFGIiDI&t=2s
 
As for Heronie = love interest while yes doesn't mean that the 2 are the same they are often tied together, mostly because they tend to have the most screen time together between boy and girl. Which unfortunately us and the girls in Naruto that was how the fandom in Naruto mainly the shippers sees it and so did studio Pierrot and the jump editors and they pushed hinata to replace Sakura starting with the Last movie only for it to backfire on them.

https://chatte-georg...tion-of-hinata/

https://chatte-georg...arity-neji-hyu/

 

I appreciate you posting this and Chatte's video as I had never seen it before. I watched the entire thing last night and I feel like it clears up everything and was perhaps the last piece of information I needed to know definitively what killed NS. Like many, I had always chalked Sakura's false confession up as being a "false confession." But when you think about it and consider Kishimoto's at the time, it has become glaringly obvious to me that it was not a false confession. In Kishimoto's own bumbling way, he was trying to give Sakura a big moment. I've sat down and analyzed chapters 457, 458, 459, 469, 470 and 471 before panel and panel and have even posted a thread here demonstrating how Sai is basically three different people over the course of these chapters. Now that I've viewed Chatte's video, it all makes sense.

 

Here is what I believe happened. Kishimoto was pressured to give Hinata her big moment in chapter 437 during the Pein fight. I'm guessing that either that moment was originally going to be reserved for Sakura (which would make sense given her previous comments about being not being able to do anything for Naruto and just the way she acted around Naruto prior to the Pein arc) or Hinata was set to die there (unlikely, but it would make sense). Chapters 450 was a complete retaliation towards the outside forces that wanted Kishimoto to make Hinata the heroine; it was an FU to those trying to pressure him to ditch Sakura; Kishimoto not only has here display a tremendous level of affection towards Naruto in open public, but even takes the time to draw Hinata acknowledging and smiling at this scene. Still hellbent of putting NS front and center, Kishimoto has Naruto get the tar beaten out of him over the course of chapters 455 and 456 and immediately has Sai rightfully draw the conclusion that Naruto is ultimately going this far because of his love for Sakura in 457; this is Kishimoto driving home the point that 437 did not mean sh-t and he is about to put NS front and center. 458 comes along and Sai corners Sakura about how Naruto feels about her and Kishimoto makes certain to point to numerous flashbacks that many pairing obsessed have tried to dismiss as not being romantic on Naruto's part.  458 ends with Sakura's reaction confirming that Sai's comments are legitimate and that it is as plain as day that Naruto loves her. We then get chapter 459 where both Sai and Shizune make some pretty weird uncalled for remarks. Shizune tells Sai that Naruto isn't simply saving Sasuke just because of the promise he made to Sakura and Sai not only agrees with this, but claims that his overall reason for being there is to let everyone know that they rely too much on Naruto; its subtle, but Kishimoto is slowly diminishing what he had Sai say in the previous two chapters. We then jump to 469 where Sakura confesses to Naruto and Naruto immediately sees through it upon hearing Sakura claim that she has given up on Sasuke (notice that he doesn't explicitly reject any part of her comments until she says this). For some reason, Yamato expresses disgust at Sakura's remark DESPITE heavily implying that Sakura was in love with Naruto in chapter 297 (another subtle instance of Kishimoto walking back on whatever he was trying to establish here).  Sakura gets pissed at Naruto's claim that she's lying to herself (which is odd if her confession is indeed false) and then leaves. Sai then spends the following chapters walking back on everything he said in chapters 457 and 458 and never mentioning the L word again.

 

Here is my deduction: Between chapters 458 and 459, someone or some group of people had a sit down with Kishimoto. Whether it was studio pierrot or his own editors briefing Kishi on the sheer OUTRAGE people were having about Sai's remarks in chapters 457 - 458, I cannot say for certain. However, it's pretty clear that Kishimoto had some ideas in chapters 457 and 458 that he never got to execute. In fact, it's possible that the man simply kept getting whittled down then afterwards until he eventually jumped on board with NH. With the amount of hatred and vitriol Sakura kept getting online, the mounting pressure from Studio Pierrot and his editors and the indications that NH = huge cash cow in the west, he may very well have just given up accepted NH as the inevitable. We will never know for sure. One thing is for certain: Throughout at least two thirds of this manga, NS was endgame and Kishimoto had been determined to make it happen.

 

Also, it would appear that in Kishimoto's mind, replacing Sakura as the heroine meant making someone besides her Naruto's love interest. From that standpoint, he supported NS throughout nearly the entire manga.

Edited by ThroughWithLove, 06 February 2023 - 07:27 PM.

[BlueStarSaber]

I don't know why it's hard for some NaruSaku fans admit something contrary to their belief after 8 years...
Something like evil Pierrot/Editors  deceived Kishimoto into thinking Hinata was the queen of the universe and he was forced to make NH official.   Hinata was their favorite. But only in fillers and they have no power in manga.NH Possibility was open since chapter 437. This chapter come out in 2009. She have a descent ammount of popularity in West. SS already had a consolidated fanbase and popularity since Part 1. It's was simply more easy to him to take SS/NH  route. Kishi has no interest in romance so he let Pierrot wrote whatever they wants.
 
The Pool was destroyed in 469. Naruto wasn't chasing Sasuke for Sakura and at this point the PoaL become irrelevant to him and Sakura. Since this Chapter the Poal never was mentioned again like something important. So i believe everything related to the promess was addressed in this chapter.
 
 
 
 
I agree in some points Sasuke and Sakura trying to kill each other was too much. But this negative moment wasn't enough to fade their Part 1 Popularity and original appeal to their fans. In part 1 i remember Sasuke was willing to die and give up his revange just to saver her against Gaara. If you think this moment has no importance for a Character like Sasuke or to SS Pairing.  SS/NH thinks the same about NaruSaku Moments and PoaL.

About the Abusive Argument of many Sakura/SS haters likes to use to diminish the SasuSaku and Sakura.
The main theme of Naruto was redemption. Just like how Naruto friendship is forever to Sasuke so was Sakura's loves to him...
Much of the SS problematic side is thanks to the Sasuke's traumas and journey as a final antagonist to fight Naruto in the end.
Just like ony other antagonist have problems with their relationships in this manga.
A Crazy psychopath like Gaara who threatened his own brothers. could never become a Kage of the same village he killed thousands.
Itachi abused and torture Kid Sasuke and is considered the "best" brother in manga.
Neji tried to kill and tortured Hinata and he died to protect her.
NejiHina was more famous than NH at the time in Japan. The same happened with worst people like Obito and Nagato.

Thats why i think hard to believe Kishimoto is stupid enough to call SS abusive/Toxic AFTER made them official. Since this will not only kitten on his two Main Characters but in his entire manga as well...
 
 
 
 
If you can't admit the rival pairings development or scenes or believe in Kishi own words that the have planned the pairings since the Beginning (i don't believe too).
What's was left? Only Popularity.

Kakashi/Iruka is a yaoi crack shipping who become  popular out of nowhere because some japoneses like the concept of the Two Teachers having a gay relationship.  But you could see Kishimoto actually implemeting this on his manga without sounding ridiculous?
This isn't the same as SasuSaku/NaruHina/NaruSaku who are hetero pairings with declarations and scenes in manga.

 
I think you underestimate how much influence editors can have on a manga series, the android saga became what it was in dragon ball due to the editor telling Toryiama to keep changing the antagonist. Heck Yahagi for kishimoto was regarded as the guy who helped make the series popular with him and when he left the quality massively declined, so it isn't hard to imagine that they influenced kishimotoe plus the interviews we have seen this being the case when it came to the ships.
 
While yes Studio Pierrot mostly could only influnce the anime, but anime studios can influence mangaka from time to time like one pice the anime staff convinced oda to include some characters in CPO and Sword when he wasn't going to. Also they still affected people interpretations of naruto especially hinata when they adapted 437 given how in the manga she was portrayed more being selfish and couldn't land a hit on pain, which by the way despite such a "BIG" scene for NH leads to nothing and naruto never addresses with the last making it worse.

You "believe" that everything about the promise of a lifetime was addressed in 469, it was brought up in 693 despite how awful that chapter was and should have been the death nail for ss though regardless it shows that naruto keeping his promises to sakura is important to him and their argument has not changed that.
 
Honestly it sounds like you have spent too much time listening to some of the SS fandom's arguments for the ship. It doesn't matter what popularity the ss ship had in part 1, part 2 did nothing to build of any positive they might of had and it only made the ship worse with their long absence of seeing each other and when they did it was positive. Heck it made everyone who wasn't a SS fan hate the couple and would have preferred her being either with naruto, someone else or no one at all. While yes there were points in time that sasuke seemed willing to give up his revenge for helping either sakura or naruto , in the end he chose revenge over them in part 1 and was the entire point of his character in the sasuke retrieval arc.
 
While yes naruto has done many redemption to characters in the series (to the point people got sick of it and were very critical of some of them like for Itachi, Pain and Obito), none of those had naruto or any other character pressuring a romantic relationship with the people they hurt or tried to kill. The only exception you could make is Nejihina, but there aren't any hints at these two being portrayed as romantic unless you count the rock lee parody manga's comedic moments. Plus there were signs of sakura moving on from sasuke to naruto before the ending happened.

Like I said before he called sakura's love an addiction, now you could argue that this is not him calling them toxic but it's not him being positive about the couple either. Plus he hasn't written them in a good manner in gaiden given the drama that mini series caused about who sadara's mother was for a while. The so called popularity of the canon ship has done nothing for the franchise except set down a decline  which yes that is partly due to ikemoto's writing being so bad, but that could only happen with how badly they wrote the canon ships in the first place that it was never going to work out in the first despite how popular they were with certain parts of the fanbase.
 

 
 
So you need to explain  this to Kishimoto/Jump/Pierrot/Producers since they betrayed your sacred  Japanese  law of writing Shonen since the beggining until the end...
 
He simply did so many mistakes filling SS/NH fans and the love Triangle + Hinata.This isn't the sacred "law" of the main pairing. Kishi could simply make something really simple/cliche like the Yusuke/Keiko thing who perfectly works in a shonen manga  and fits much better in your "law.
 


 

It's pretty common for shonen to have more than one female character have a crush on the main character, black clover is an example of this though everyone knows that if the main female is among them she is the most likely the one to get with him. It's just that shippers didn't want to admit that was the case with naruto and dismissed any proof of Narusaku happening.

Anyway Through with love glad you liked chatte's video. 

Also bail of lies how more chapters are likely to have for this manga left?
 

Edited by BlueStarSaber, 11 February 2023 - 01:06 PM.

[Bail o' Lies]

Blue, I have no clue how much longer. I assume that the chapters are based off the light novel chapters. When they can't finish a light novel chapter in a manga chapter, they make the manga chapter a "part." So one could look to see how many chapter the light novel had. Lets say for example its between 9-11. Which would mean 4 at 11, but those could also be split up into parts so even 8 chapters at 11 light novel chapters. Ask Lucky, he read the light novel.

 

Summary Time: Chapter 7 part 2.

 

Dinos are chasing after the prisoners, including some that I'm pretty sure are herbivores. Sakura smashes through a wall to save them. After saying some she goes into the Zanzul's office to look for...something? Wait what is she looking for? They got the magic space dust that will cure Naruto. She quickly looking through his books to see if he has anything on a revival jutsu. Then she goes down to the basement to see if the information is there. While going there she both directs more prisoners to escape and run into Jiji again. He goes for a hug...sexual assaults? This again is a problem with being to lax with people that are criminals? Oh he stabs her which puts her down because his blade is coated in the toxin. He is working for Zanzul and somehow knows that the container has the magic space dust...somehow? Apparently, he was telling the truth about having a girlfriend at least oh and he can use jutsu. As he breaks the seal and unleashes a brachiosaurus, that starts to destroy the prison. Oh he is the one that was uses jutsu to revival the dinos.

 

He leaves Sakura to die in the collapsing facility while she calls out mentally to Sasuke.

 

4/10. Why were they so trusting with criminals they didn't really know.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 11 February 2023 - 05:38 PM.

[TheFirstEvil100]

Why were they so trusting with criminals they didn't really know Bail?

Easy Naruto, dude is so kittening stupid its leaking onto other characters they all probably think they have a tragic past.

[BlueStarSaber]

I take we are close to the infamous sakura willing to use edo tensei scene

[Bail o' Lies]

I take we are close to the infamous sakura willing to use edo tensei scene

Spoilers? Well without context I really comment on that so I and you just have to wait for that chapter to hear my thoughts...though personally I would have preferred to have first learned of this stupidity while I was reading it.

 

Why were they so trusting with criminals they didn't really know Bail?

Easy Naruto, dude is so kittening stupid its leaking onto other characters they all probably think they have a tragic past.

The best answer I can think of it is a problem with characters'... awareness/intelligence of the plot and plans of the story.

 

The thing is you can't just have characters be hyper aware of everything going in the story; then you just have them circumventing the plot which makes it difficult for the story to get off the ground. However, you don't want your characters to just be following the plot without a thought in their head, because that's also dull. So, you want your characters to take reasonable precautions while following the story with the antagonist making sure they follow the plot.

 

A D&D example. A group of adventurers are off to rescue a princess from a tower guarded by a dragon. The default and intended story is just for them to charge in and fight the dragon. A cool fight maybe, but they aren't really thinking. So the magic user thinks, why don't I just use the spell teleport to go in and out of the princess' room with her, circumventing the need to fight the dragon. Ok, smart but boring for everyone else. So a reasonable competent DM will go, there is a magic stone in the tower that prevents teleporting in and out like that. So either they abandon the plan or the thief goes, why don't I scale the walls, get in there, destroy the magic object, so they then could use teleport. Ok, but that puts them at risk of the dragon spotting them, which means its a competition between the rolls of the player and the DM to see who succeed with the rest of the party ready incase the thief fails. If the thief wins, it was their big moment of the campaign; if they lose, they fight the dragon. Good enough. 

 

A manga example Jujutsu Kaisen. Last chapter the heroes' plan fell through and villain's happened.

 

The plan of the group was to get Megumi's sister and love out of the culling games as she is one of the random people forced into the game. However, the main villain has two types of people forced into the game, people with hidden powers unlocked and people possessed by an ancient spirit/soul. It was the latter for his sister. However, the cast didn't think of that because Megumi was in denial of the possibility and was hoping it was the former. With everyone else going along with it trusting he could tell who his sister is. The person possessing his sister simply went along with it till they gave her the points.

 

Then Sukuna possess Megumi. It relies on three factors, 1 the binding oath with Yuji Itadori, 2 his interest in Megumi, and 3 his ability to transfer himself through someone consuming one of Yuji's fingers. The cast didn't know, Yuji made a binding oath with him, even if they suspected they probably brushed it off since why hadn't he done something already. He always made clear he was interested in Megumi but without knowledge of the third factor it just seemed like he wanted to fight him, but with the third factor you realize he always wanted his body. A body with a powerful curse technique that doesn't have the strange ability to resist him like Yuji does. It is both reasonable for the audience and the cast to not expect this plan as you need knowledge of all three factors, but once you have all three it makes perfect sense.

 

Oh another manga example Yumeochi: Dreaming of Falling For You. It is a story about people reliving their high school years through sleeping. In the second chapter the main character let slip he works at a book store. So at the end of the chapter the heroine decided to check out the local bookstore to see if he was. This may lead to them sharing that they dream of each other depending on what happens next chapter.

 

But anyways enough stalling about this mess.

 

Its clearly suppose to be a shocking moment the Jiji was a bad guy but all I thought was, yep, he is a prisoner. It makes sense since he has been guiding them and feeding them hints if not outright telling them where to go. It doesn't make sense they never suspected him or were cautious of him, as he is a prisoner. Sasuke seem more concern he kept flirting with Sakura than the possibility of him assaulting her or deceiving them. My guess is because if they did, the story wouldn't work. As they clearly need to give the magic space dust the the baddies for the next part of their plan and the plot to happen. Again its the same problem I felt since the first chapter, this story is a first draft that no one proofread to see if it made sense. The fact the prison has always been so lax (seriously, no escorts to anywhere, no one guarding the young female doctor, and the female doctor hanging and eating with prisoners with no one batting an eye) make me think that the writer is so shelter they don't understand prisoners are dangerous nor had they ever had to take any precautions to protect themselves in their life.  

 

TLDR: You want your characters to be reasonably intelligent and that to be reflected consistently in the story. Sasuke and Sakura are only allowed to be intelligent when the story needs them to and the rest of the time they might as well be mindless drones.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 12 February 2023 - 11:06 AM.

[BlueStarSaber]

Whoops sorry I thought you knew my bad, it was something I heard not sure if it's true. Sorry forgot how to do the spoiler tag

[Bail o' Lies]

Whoops sorry I thought you knew my bad, it was something I heard not sure if it's true. Sorry forgot how to do the spoiler tag

No problem, but I prefer to see it first in the chapter to give my honest reaction. I made an exception for the Hinata Slap because of how the story was structured to the point it didn't make sense and it only made sense it happening due to events outside of the story. And even given the context of the chapter its clear the story is rushing and desperate. I haven't read the light novel nor watch the anime more than clips when it recommended to me (and that more a still image and the title) because I don't care to. Like I said in the summary, it would be best for you to ask lucky, if you don't want to wait, because he seems to have read the light novel.

 

So you need to explain this to Kishimoto/Jump/Pierrot/Producers since they betrayed your sacred Japanese law of writing Shonen since the beginning until the end...

 

He simply did so many mistakes filling SS/NH fans and the love Triangle + Hinata. This isn't the sacred "law" of the main pairing. Kishi could simply make something really simple/cliche like the Yusuke/Keiko thing who perfectly works in a shonen manga, and fits much better in your "law.

I don't need to explain it to them, they already know. You are the one that is ignorant. You can't even seem to comprehend that people may have different views due to cultural differences.

 

I believe I kept saying it was a rule in shounen manga not a law. If you want another word that may be more agreeable, Trope. No matter what word you use the default in shounen manga, the heroine is the love interest of the main character. Of course story can and do play around with it, but at start of the story you check for that and go from there.

 

Hinata was not important to Kishimoto until he got editors that promoted her to him. She was never the intended love interest. She was made it by the end and therefor also the heroine due to the belief that she was incredibly popular and Sakura was too hated to remain either of those things. But that only happened at the last minute. Before that the intended pairing was NS.

 

So the Japanese fans always assumed the end pairing was going to be NS and never had a reason to suspect otherwise. So they were left confused by the ending more than anything; various events led to an eventual backlash.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 15 February 2023 - 07:54 AM.

[BlueStarSaber]

Since the 8th chapter thread isn't here yet I pot this review here https://www.youtube....o?feature=share