At any rate, here goes, copy and pasting, the discussion of why the Jedi were complete idiots.
<Cinnamon> Oh, come on... we go from the fall of the republic which has lasted over a thousand years to the height of Imperial power on a GALACTIC scale in a mere thirty years? I /SO/ do not think so.
<CoryHolmes> Palpatine pissed a LOT of people off
<CoryHolmes> (and the accepted figure, by the way, is 25,000 years. 1,000 generations)
<Cinnamon> The whole imperial machine would be no more than a political hiccup.
<CoryHolmes> But I will grant you that it should've been longer.
<Cinnamon> That's supposed to make it better, is it?
<Cinnamon> LOTS longer.
<Cinnamon> LOTS and LOTS longer
<CoryHolmes> And these mistakes happened in the first movie, not in the subsequent ones.
<CoryHolmes> Afterall, in the first movie, Han Solo calls it a hokey religion and an ancient weapon. It's only 30 years old. That doesn't qualify as "ancient" in my book.
* Templar shrugs
<Templar> but it's been around for 30,000 years...
* breisleach burrows into the couch.
* ChibiUsa peeks at the burrowed Breis-san
<CoryHolmes> Yeah, but the Jedi were only gone for 30 years. A little descrepancy.
<Templar> *srhug*
<Templar> disinformation campaign
<CoryHolmes> Another thing I would've preferred in a longer-lived Empire was to hammer home just how stratified it was.
<CoryHolmes> Just how much the Empire ran on family lines and connections and royalty.
<CoryHolmes> That's something a lot of people gloss over.
<Desaix> Come to think of it, there has to have been SOME kind of smear campaign against the Jedi for Palpatine to get the Senate to go along with their being destroyed...
<Templar> Des: there was
<Templar> a big one
<Templar> that lasted several years after Palpy's death
<CoryHolmes> Yeah.
<CoryHolmes> And people were unhappy with the Jedi to begin with.
<Desaix> My Star Wars knowledge extends only to the movies.
<breisleach> Mine _barely_ covers the movies.
I've seen 'em all, but...<CoryHolmes> First off is their policy of taking children away from their families before the age of 6 months.
<ChibiUsa> The Jedi ate babies?
* CoryHolmes , sadly, has more SW info stuffed into his head than any reasonable person should have.
<CoryHolmes> Chibi: No, took them for training. Completely cut them off from their families, most Jedi children never knowing what the people on the outside were.
<CoryHolmes> And then there's the arrogance they had in dealing with people.
<Desaix> Come to think of it, these things are TRUE. *blink* Maybe Palpatine was right.
<Cinnamon> Booyah. THe Jedi are among the most tactically and strategically challenged peeps I ever saw.
<CoryHolmes> I quote Anakin Skywalker, "Jedi business. Go back to your drinks." That alone told you how the Jedi of the time dealt with pesky outsiders.
<breisleach> Oooh... Baby eating Jedis!
<MageOhki> Desaix: Worse, they never married, nor had children of their own.
<MageOhki> *snort* These Jedi had it COMING.
<CoryHolmes> Des: What Mage said.
<MageOhki> no, correction.
<CoryHolmes> And they had good reason (at the time) for those laws.
<MageOhki> _I_ would have, simply becasue they were _wrong_.
<MageOhki> Cory: Those laws were _wrong_.
<Cinnamon> Not only that... QuiGon comes in and says 'this kid is the strongest force user I've ever seen' and the council says 'naaah, we don't wanna train him... let the dark side have him'
<MageOhki> completely, and period.
<CoryHolmes> First off, getting that the child before the age of 6 months meant that the Jedi could get at them before they could experience hate, anger, and all those other nasty Dark Side emotions.
<CoryHolmes> Seperating the child from outside family would ensure their dedication to the Order, the only real family the child would ever have known.
<breisleach> Yeah, nothing like a little brainwashing...
<CoryHolmes> Same thing with marriage, children of their own, etc. Any of those would've forced the Knight to choose between family and Order.
<MageOhki> Cory: First: disproven. At least 2 Jedi they got their hands on at that age went dark.
<CoryHolmes> Breis: And no small amount of that. But define "brainwashing" in such a way that it doesn't mean, "raising a child properly".
<CoryHolmes> Mage: Didn't say it was totally successful.
<Desaix> Yeah, but then they don't know what those emotions are... will never understand them... will lose the ability to know how to deal with them if they get SLAMMED into them at some point... Gah, THAT'S probably why Luke was able to come back from the dark side, to be blunt.
<CoryHolmes> Just said that that was the doctorin behind that idea.
<CoryHolmes> Des: Bingo.
<MageOhki> Second: Those with family of their own, tend to be more stable.
<CoryHolmes> It wasn't a perfect system, but it was the Jedi system.
<Templar> Mage: sure, but you think they'd want to admit that?
<CoryHolmes> And again, it splits the focus between family and Order. The Jedi couldn't afford that.
<Cinnamon> The Jedi were dumb. No doubt.
<CoryHolmes> Cinny: Complacent would be a better term.
<Cinnamon> DUMB.
<MageOhki> Cory: *shrugs* To be cold... as a professonal military officer, and someone who's studied the "monastic" orders...
<Templar> dumb
<MageOhki> NO monastic order has EVER been succesful on the field of battle, not as a rule.
<MageOhki> there appears to be something (in fact, it's one of the reasons _why_ in fact, the old military saw exists)
<CoryHolmes> That's in real life. SW is, by far, not real.
<Templar> Mage: weren't there a few during the crusades?
<CoryHolmes>
<Cinnamon> Just HANDING the most potent force user to Palpatine? DUMB. Maybe they shouldn't have trained him as a Jedi... but to just turn him away... and force his training to be substandard...
<ChibiUsa> And that's because they don't know what to do with the camp followers.
<Desaix> Not even the Shaolin, who were individually the best one-on-one fighters I can think of in their time.
<CoryHolmes> Chibi: Down, girl
<MageOhki> about a family man that ensures a better performace.
<MageOhki> or the potential for it, anyways.
<MageOhki> Desaix: Yup.
<MageOhki> Templar: All failed, basically. as a rule, their performance... on anything beyound a personal level was substandard by any measure.
<CoryHolmes> Why are you trying to apply real-world principles to a fictional story?
<CoryHolmes> And that's just it, Mage.
<MageOhki> the only times they performed _as_ a unit, WELL, was under the command of a married person.
<MageOhki> (or someone who was not in their order)
<CoryHolmes> They WEREN'T large-scale war fighters. The few times they massed in numbers like that, they had a hard time of it.
<MageOhki> Cory: Even one on one... the monastic orders lost.
<MageOhki> as a general rule.
<Desaix> Besides... from what I can tell, the Jedi aren't a military order. They seem to be a galactic police force...
<MageOhki> Desaix: even WORSE.
<CoryHolmes> Des: Good description.
<MageOhki> Cory: *shrugs* It's a example of why the Jedi were truly stupid.
<Templar> Des: definately worse
<Desaix> But there's no army to back them up.
<MageOhki> Police forces... there's a joke about that.
<Templar> a military force can afford to be a seperate culture from mainstream society
<Templar> a police force *can't*
* breisleach apologizes, and is going to step out for the duration of the discussion. x.x Can't follow it, and too much scrolling at once.
*** Part: breisleach (breisleach@0-1pool144-78.nas22.indianapolis1.in.us.da.qwest.net)
<ChibiUsa> Galactic UN
<CoryHolmes> Hey, the Jedi system worked for 25,000 years give or take.
<Desaix> CU: No, not even that good.
<MageOhki> Cory: Nope.
<Templar> CH: not counting interuptions like the SITH WAR?
<MageOhki> THe comics (which are offical, btw)
<MageOhki> have MANY examples of married Jedi, or Jedi who were parents, or hey, Jedi who didn't start their training til later.
<MageOhki> MUCH later.
<MageOhki> "Tales of the Jedi" anyone?
<CoryHolmes> Templar: The system still worked. The Jedi protected the Rupublic for that length of time.
<CoryHolmes> They still had problems and troubles, but they lasted for 25,000 years.
<MageOhki> Cory: Not the way they are at the time of the first movies.
<MageOhki> The comics show that.
<Templar> or the Corellians
<MageOhki> Tales of the Jedi, remember?
<CoryHolmes> Mage: Didn't say that.
<CoryHolmes> Let me rephrase, though:
<CoryHolmes> The system succeeded and lasted for 25,000 years.
<Templar> CH: probably not
<MageOhki> Cory: Yes, Jedi were aroudn for 25,000 years.
<CoryHolmes> Sometimes better than other times, but it still lasted for that time.
<MageOhki> But it's _clear_ that the system they _USED_ differed!
<Templar> I got the impression that the "current'" system was only around for a couple centuries at best
<Templar> hell
<Templar> the jedi began as an order of monks that just wanted to be left alone
<Desaix> The thing is... Qui Gon was right. Anakin IS the man who brought about balance in the force -- in the last battles (movie cont.), there was Palpatine\Darth... and Master Yoda\Kenobi\Luke. (Or Luke\Leia for that last battle, though Leia had NO training...).
<MageOhki> The GREATEST of the Jedi from the Sith war period...
<MageOhki> didn't start training til her 30's, and was a mother, who lost her _JEDI_ husband!
<MageOhki>
<CoryHolmes> The systems changed with the times.
<CoryHolmes> But the Jedi Order has been around for 1,000 generations.
<Desaix> Actually, the system ISN'T working even in that time -- I mean, if they NEED a prophecy to tell them they're unbalanced, they really should try and figure out WHY they're unbalanced.
<MageOhki> Cory: Yup... and anyone who knows their system anaylists would KNOW that the Jedi are #@*%&#@(*% doomed.
<MageOhki> at the system they used.
<ChibiUsa> bbl
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<CoryHolmes> It's just that the last generation really annoyed an already unstable and increasingly fractured Republic.
<CoryHolmes> Palpatine used that to his advantage to turn the people against the Jedi, and they followed like a horde of lemmings.
<MageOhki> Cory: With traits that they really should have avoided.
<MageOhki> Taking kids from their parents at 6.
<MageOhki> months.
<CoryHolmes> Mage: They had no one to keep them in check.
<MageOhki> Living "clostered", etc, etc.
<CoryHolmes> No one to tell them, "No, you can't do this," and no one to tell them to do it otherwise.
<MageOhki> I could go on... but... it's the prime example of why the Jesuits got hammered to the wall, in Japan.
<CoryHolmes> They got complacent.
<Templar> mage: and in Europe
<CoryHolmes> They got stuck in a White Tower that they knew what was right and wrong, even for themselves.
<Desaix> Cory: Complacent isn't the word. They started out unstably, and no-one called them on it for 25,000 years.
<MageOhki> Cory: You see why I _don't_ like the AS, though they're avoiding one mistake (and a big one) the AS made in Randland.
<MageOhki> err... Jedi made, in Republic...
<CoryHolmes> Their arrogance extended to the point where their Council, the most powerful Masters of their time, could stand before Palpatine and NOT sense his Dark Sideness.
<Desaix> They KNEW they had problems -- they were out of balance -- and they did NOTHING, hoping for 'the one of the prophecy' to fix their problems.
<CoryHolmes> They stood before Darth Sideious and didn't see him for what he was.
<CoryHolmes> How's THAT for arrogance?
<MageOhki> *shrugs* LIke I said, they had it a coming!
<CoryHolmes> Mage: That they did.
<CoryHolmes> Which is why Luke Skywalker is in the best position to hit the reset button.
<CoryHolmes> He has the power and ability... and the upbringing of his time to avoid the mistakes of the past.
<Templar> yep
<MageOhki> Note Luke _isn't_ making the new Jedi with the idiotic rules.
<MageOhki> He married Mara, after all.
<Templar> and has a son
<Templar> his niece and nephew are probably more powerful than he is
<Templar> and then there's Coran
* Desaix is outta his element when book info gets involved... bleh.
<CoryHolmes> Temp: I don't like that idea.
<CoryHolmes> Skywalker is THE most powerful. End of story, as far as I'm concerened.
* Desaix wonders if\when they'll kill off Luke like they did Chewie.
<CoryHolmes> Des: They wanted to, but Lucas said no.
<CoryHolmes> They picked on Chewie instead.
<Templar> Des: they didn't
<Templar> came damn close, though
<Desaix> I know they haven't YET, but... some day? Maybe? (please?_
<CoryHolmes> Hey, I like Skywalker.
<CoryHolmes> (preferrably as Zahn writes him, but I still like the Farmboy.)
<Desaix> I find him annoying often enough to think he DESERVES to die... some day. Eventually... (i.e., I don't want him lasting as long as Yoda)
<Desaix> Thing is... I'm not sure I'm going to agree with myself about any of the characters after the sixth -- I mean, third movie.
<CoryHolmes> Heh.
<CoryHolmes> The only real way to enjoy the characters is through fanfic.
<CoryHolmes>
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<Cinnamon> THe first threee movies (err... parts 1-3) are just Eyecandy... IMHO.
<Desaix> Considering the quality of most SW fanfic... I'm unlikely to enjoy it. (Especially since I need a root based in the books to understand them, which I DON'T)
<Cinnamon> Sturgeon's Law
<Desaix> Cinn: Considering part 3 hasn't been finished yet, that's a rather... sweeping generality.
<CoryHolmes> Des: Your loss.
<CoryHolmes> And I love SW fanfic... the good ones, naturally.
<CoryHolmes> In a field as saturated as that, it's hard to find the gems. But they're out there, and I love 'em.
<Cinnamon> Des: Yes... Yes it is. But as I cannot accept the ENTIRE Imperial period lasting 40 years tops, I'm not sure how the third film could make a difference, unless it includes a mamoth time warp.
<CoryHolmes> Heh.
<CoryHolmes> Which is how we started this conversation, and I agree with you.
<CoryHolmes> It would make more sense if it were a century or so.
<Cinnamon> At the VERY least
<Templar> not really
<Desaix> Um... a power of the force is discovered which grants the jedi EXTREMELY long life? Er, no, wait, that won't help Luke. Um...
<CoryHolmes> Templar: Just in terms of how much the people forgot about the Jedi.
<Templar> not really forgot
<CoryHolmes> I fail to see how all that could've been forogtten in just 30 years.
<Templar> remember, there was a sort of...respect for Kenobi
<Templar> and remember
<Templar> Kenobi was there before the empire
<Cinnamon> Err... It's not just a matter of that... its' pure logistics... How the hell could they build the FLEET in that time?
<MageOhki> CInny: Actually, that's easy, really.
<Desaix> It's already built, don't you know? Just like the army... it's a secret.
<MageOhki> THAT part's belivable.
<CoryHolmes> Cinny: Robotech Factory
<Cinnamon> Well, yes, he was there before the empire as it is NOW... it was not specifically stated in the original trilogy.
<Templar> Cinny: um...have you ever heard how BIG Kuat Drive Yards is?
<MageOhki> It takes... what, 5-6 years, the sourcebooks say to build a SD?
<CoryHolmes> KDY is massive.
<CoryHolmes> Mage: Something like that.
<MageOhki> With the size of the republic, building 1000 SD's is a joke.
<MageOhki> Easy.
<CoryHolmes> And the Empire had 25,000 of the buggers.
<Cinnamon> Massive enough to build a thousand at a go?
<MageOhki> Cory: 30 years?
<MageOhki> Cinnamon: KDY is ONLY ONE shipyard.
<CoryHolmes> Mage: That's the accepted number.
<MageOhki> How many are around the "Empire?"
<CoryHolmes> They had 25,000 ISDs at the time of the Battle of Yavin.
<Cinnamon> Sorry... I still don't buy it.
<MageOhki> Hey, the SKM in Weber's Honorverse had 300 of the WALL under construction at _ONCE_.
<MageOhki> one system.
<MageOhki> (SD equivant, to say)
* Desaix could point to the fact that there don't NEED to be 25,000 ISDs at Yavin... after all, the Republic is doing just fine without anything more than a couple hundred policemen for 25,000 years.
<Templar> KDY is the biggest
<Templar> but image, if you will
<Templar> a continuous line of dry-docks
<Templar> interconnection
<Templar> in a ring around a star...roughly around the orbit of Pluto
<CoryHolmes> Des: They weren't official policemen. They assisted the Republic, but didn't enforce the rules.
<CoryHolmes> And there were 25,000 Jedi Knights, and couple of hundred of Masters.
<MageOhki> Templar: You don't have to convince me.
<Desaix> Cory: There was no military, though, and they were called in to enforce laws, essentially. Heh.
<Templar> mge: nope
<CoryHolmes> That may seem to be a lot... but consider the galactic population of several trillion.
<CoryHolmes> Des: No, that's what the cops were for.
<MageOhki> _I_ know how easy it would be to crank out 25,000 ships of that size, in Honorverse.
<CoryHolmes> The Jedi just helped out where the cops couldn't handle the situation.
* Cinnamon would have estimated it at much more than several trillion
<Desaix> Cory: WHAT cops? Where?
<CoryHolmes> Des: CorSec.
<Desaix> ... Who?
<CoryHolmes> Cinny: I was being conservative.
<CoryHolmes> Corellian Security.
<CoryHolmes> The cops for the Corellian system.
<Desaix> Ah. But that's local.
<MageOhki> *shrugs* Hell, it's stated in the latest Datadump from Weber, the League itself could (if needed, really, and the will was there) have something like 40-60 major shipyards, easy.
<MageOhki> As in each cranking out over 100 of the wall, per year.
<MageOhki> (well, not stated, implied)
<Desaix> The Jedi were the, ah, 'feds.'
<CoryHolmes> Des: Good analogy.
<CoryHolmes> And they mostly served in investigation and diplomacy.
<CoryHolmes> They only had to fight as a last resort.
<Desaix> But there is NO MILITARY in the Republic, and it's been holding together for 25,000 years. I wouldn't think you'd need more than, say, a dozen ships like Star Destroyers to rule the universe.
<CoryHolmes> (but when they did fight... *drool* eyecandy)
<Desaix> At least, no military until the second movie.
<CoryHolmes> No serious military.
<Desaix> Local stuff.
<CoryHolmes> They had Canada's military
<Desaix> The Jedi were the closest thing to a military they had, though... and their might not have been as many Jedi as there were planets.
<Cinnamon> ....
<CoryHolmes> Des: Yep. Again, only 25,000 Knights or so.
<CoryHolmes> (at the time of TPM)
<Cinnamon> Then where did the trade federations' ships come in? They were certainly a galactic level military...
<CoryHolmes> Cinny: Private military.
<Cinnamon> Incompetent, but there were lots of them...
<CoryHolmes> Not part of a "Repuclic Military".
<Desaix> It was a case of two local militaries combatting. Similar to, say, the Alabama National Guard invading Florida.
<CoryHolmes> Des: And Floriday would end up better because of it
* Cinnamon snorts
<CoryHolmes> That's actually a good analogy.
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<Templar> okay
* breisleach pokes her head in to see if it's quieted down. o.o;
<Templar> who needs the logs?
<CoryHolmes> All the member systems had their own form of military and police. They conformed to Galactic standards for such things (as with investigations and whatnot) but weren't part of an overall system.
<CoryHolmes> That's where the Jedi came in, I think.
<CoryHolmes> They had authority over everone... and answered to no one.
<MageOhki> Cinny does, Templar.
<CoryHolmes> (again, that damned Jedi arrogance)
<Templar> Cin? can you take .rar files?
<Cinnamon> Sure can, Temp
<CoryHolmes> Okay, how about a slightly different subject.
<Templar> hmmmmmmmmmmm
<Cinnamon> Yeah, let's poke holes in Star Trek now...
