53 replies to this topic

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

Assuming that any magazine in Japan would not reject his submissions, I agree that he should start from the bottom. Starting from scratch is one of the only two ways that Kishi can return to his former glory. What he needs is luck and a good jump start. However, still it will be difficult to sale any of his volumes in large no matter which magazine or manga house his works are submitted. He still has a fallout fanbase that will deter his success. He needs to hit a jackpot with upcoming story. Jackpots are one in a million and there just  not many times to get it right and void cancellations. This why starting from the bottom has another way.
  
What I mean from very bottom as being like an amateur. Think it as an athlete or coach retired professionally just to coach little kids. They are very passionate about their profession for many years that they don't care about the big bucks. Kishi is not a fresh meat noob. In fact he could retire from all the money he earned from Naruto all these year. He's rich. He doesn't need to worry about little to no sales and just finish the story as a comic  author/story teller than a business man. We all know the the Japanese publish marketing does not work that way. He cannot afford to publish his work were it would be axed from low sales.
 
He really needs to downgrade and do webcomics that will generate him little to no profit and the advice I suggested to him in my previous post. How webcomic works is that it basically just him, his staff and the fans or just him and the fans. Although it sounds very harsh, the advantage Kishi has over starters is by miles with his name alone. To set the tone, he could with claim back all the rights from SJ and continued Samurai 8 digitally and confessed his apologies to the fans in the interview with Naruto ending and that he failed to live up to the expectations of S8, let the fans that he will not give up on and try make up for the Naruto disappointment through S8.
 
It comes with a great cost. He will be losing money to pay out his staff each week, biweekly, or monthly salary. SJ has a very tight grip on any story they have rights, so he will have to battle it out in court just like any published author that have done it in the past (other companies). A cost of reputation and partnership he has with SJ. This means the Borruto series will be in the redzone of being cancelled. He can never changed the past, but this will help negate people calling him a money grabber. This is the exact opposite effect that was seen with Naruto ending. It does not come down to money, but how much he's willing to sacrifice himself to start over and turn over a new leaf. Who knows, the webcomic bushiness may work out for him that he might even have his own webcomic digital publishing business for future mangaka that wants to go digital. 
 
To sum all this up, luck or sacrifice will bring his fans back.
 
Pretty much said all I can say about Kishi's future in a positive light. Looking forward to his post S8 interview.

 

 

 

@NS Fan In Kentucky:

 

None of us care less. If they want an explanation. Tell them from now on purchase every single volume from every manga of his that is available in Japan even if they don't know the language 

Edited by Konoha'sCrimsonFox, 21 April 2020 - 08:55 AM.

[ree]

Personally Kishimoto has shot his own leg. First he should stop drawing Naruto when he felt tired. Second he has never accepted to change the ending just for money. And don't think he would start a web comic his ego will not accept it, I mean he draw a manga that was at the same level that One Pice o DBZ and go so down I don't think so. Really I want a new ending, it not gonna happen I accept it. But his career as a mangaka not gonna come back

[Bail o' Lies]

Personally Kishimoto has shot his own leg. First he should stop drawing Naruto when he felt tired. Second he has never accepted to change the ending just for money. And don't think he would start a web comic his ego will not accept it, I mean he draw a manga that was at the same level that One Piece o DBZ and go so down I don't think so. Really I want a new ending, it not gonna happen I accept it. But his career as a mangaka not gonna come back

I don't think even the most humble man in the world would accept a drop that low that quickly, and neither do I believe that the people in WSJ would allow that. He still got two more attempts. They'll let him take them and give him some leeway like they did before...though they probably won't try to hype it up like they did with S8. Going to another magazine preferably the one Yahagi is still in charge of is better.

 

He should have which would have ended it after the Pein arc which was when he only just starting to argue with his editors. Which means he would have resisted nH and went with NS. Would ended around 2008-9 which was when was at it peak popularity internationally. So, if they had done a sequel it probably would have revitalized interest of a crowd that was only starting to wane. Instead of one years later that most have moved on because they were tired of the war arc and the shipping wars.

[TheFirstEvil100]

Oh no, this is the worst news ever, poor unfortunate Kishi how can such an amazing and talented writer like Kishi get a manga canceled. I mean so many people loved Naruto and the fantastic job he did with all the characters, and the ending OMG I was so happy with the ending.

 

Just a note I'm joking I'm happy his manga has got the axed and I hope it happens to his next one so that everyone knows that he is a hack and a sexist too.

 

Yes, I will never forgive him, and what he said with Sakura, that she would be an awful woman for moving on from Sasuke something even my mother called out as being sexist as she was abused by my dad, so yeah old wounds.

[Konoha'sCrimsonFox]

Personally Kishimoto has shot his own leg. First he should stop drawing Naruto when he felt tired. Second he has never accepted to change the ending just for money. And don't think he would start a web comic his ego will not accept it, I mean he draw a manga that was at the same level that One Pice o DBZ and go so down I don't think so. Really I want a new ending, it not gonna happen I accept it. But his career as a mangaka not gonna come back

 

If I remember correctly, Kishi wanted to end the manga before the Pain Arc, but SJ refused because Naruto was just too popular to end.

[Namaenash]

The reason this manga fail was because it has Masashi Kishimoto name in it.

Don't underestimate Japanese readers` sentiment. You treat them bad, they'll stop buying from you.

Consider Arakawa sensei's work after Fullmetal Alchemist. She decided to write a story about farm life --Silver Spoon. Not an action adventure manga like FMA. It's a risky transition, and I can bet you that if Hiromu Arakawa name was not in it, it won't be the 7th best selling manga in Japan in 2012. The name alone warrant her loyal readers to buy the manga, since she was splendid in FMA.

I'm not at all surprised Kishimoto works after Naruto will face a tough challenge to succeed, because of how he handled Naruto.

[Phantom_999]

The reason this manga fail was because it has Masashi Kishimoto name in it.
Don't underestimate Japanese readers` sentiment. You treat them bad, they'll stop buying from you.
Consider Arakawa sensei's work after Fullmetal Alchemist. She decided to write a story about farm life --Silver Spoon. Not an action adventure manga like FMA. It's a risky transition, and I can bet you that if Hiromu Arakawa name was not in it, it won't be the 7th best selling manga in Japan in 2012. The name alone warrant her loyal readers to buy the manga, since she was splendid in FMA.
I'm not at all surprised Kishimoto works after Naruto will face a tough challenge to succeed, because of how he handled Naruto.

So true. Did you crunch any numbers for S8 after the fact btw? Just wondering. Or will you when the last volume comes out?

Edited by Phantom_999, 24 April 2020 - 05:48 AM.

[LuckyChi7]

So true. Did you crunch any numbers for S8 after the fact btw? Just wondering. Or will you when the last volume comes out?

 

 

 

I believe it's May 13.

[Namaenash]

So true. Did you crunch any numbers for S8 after the fact btw? Just wondering. Or will you when the last volume comes out?

I did check the first 3 volume here: http://www.narusaku....=16477&p=976935

In hindsight, we can approximately conclude that Kishi doesn't have that much bargaining power in WSJ. Their strategy to put his name in manga works was not a good idea (it has negative consequences) although illustrated by someone else. And importantly, Japanese readers seem to don't care with his work.

You don't heard people talking about Samurai 8 in Twitter in Japan. When it's about to be cancelled, readers were indifference.

Best for Kishibto do another type of works and probably return working on Naruto much much later on. Much like Toriyama.

[Bail o' Lies]

I did check the first 3 volume here: http://www.narusaku....=16477&p=976935

In hindsight, we can approximately conclude that Kishi doesn't have that much bargaining power in WSJ. Their strategy to put his name in manga works was not a good idea (it has negative consequences) although illustrated by someone else. And importantly, Japanese readers seem to don't care with his work.

You don't heard people talking about Samurai 8 in Twitter in Japan. When it's about to be cancelled, readers were indifference.

Best for Kishibto do another type of works and probably return working on Naruto much much later on. Much like Toriyama.

They apparently were hyping as the next big thing hoping lighting would strike twice...its just, it didn't. Then when it didn't they kept it around longer than most both to see how it would do internationally, and they had already reach their limit of manga they cancel in the magazine per year.

 

The thing is Samurai/feudal and sci fi are the things he is interested in. You mentioned Arakawa doing a farm manga, but what I recall from fullmetal alchemist the boys were originally farm boys and their were a lot of showing of the country side. What I'm trying to say is she had an interest in the general field even when she was working on other stories. While Toriyama is a gag-comic mangaka Dragon Ball was originally just another of his gag comics like all his other work before it evolved into marital art manga and eventually created the genre of shounen battle manga.

 

Other then that? Kishimoto did a one shots years back about a mob hit-man, and a children's baseball team manga. There are always lot of hitman/crime manga in circulation, and sport manga are notoriously difficult to make successful. I think his first one shot was some feudal fantasy with a talking rat as a companion. 

 

..it might be funny for him to just do a simple romance manga and see how that works.

 

He still got two shots.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 24 April 2020 - 09:30 AM.

[Gravenimage]

Didn't see a topic on it but due to low sales, this kitten is being canceled.

I guess the garbage epilogue and all of the retcons weren't a fluke. Kishimoto can't blame NH fans, SP or anybody for this one.

 

Like I didn't see that coming it's just as I thought. It wasn't just the story being too short, boring and low on quality but the Japanese fans are still upset with Kishi because of Naruto's ending. After making such a big mistake you think anyone would want to read another manga written by him? It's a no-brainer so S8 won't even get an anime adaption because it's that bad. Yet I don't feel sorry for him he had this coming this is what happens when he listen to his editors and the western fans instead of having a back bone and decide for himself what's best for his story. Why do you think Oda won't give in to the shippers? He said it clearly OP isn't a romance manga and he will stick to his words so the Luffy/Nami Luffy/Boa fans have no other choice but to stick with fan fiction. 

[sushi.]

 
Like I didn't see that coming it's just as I thought. It wasn't just the story being too short, boring and low on quality but the Japanese fans are still upset with Kishi because of Naruto's ending. After making such a big mistake you think anyone would want to read another manga written by him? It's a no-brainer so S8 won't even get an anime adaption because it's that bad. Yet I don't feel sorry for him he had this coming this is what happens when he listen to his editors and the western fans instead of having a back bone and decide for himself what's best for his story. Why do you think Oda won't give in to the shippers? He said it clearly OP isn't a romance manga and he will stick to his words so the Luffy/Nami Luffy/Boa fans have no other choice but to stick with fan fiction. 

Are the japanese fans really that mad? Boruto is still on both as manga and anime.

[Derock]

I did check the first 3 volume here: http://www.narusaku....=16477&p=976935

In hindsight, we can approximately conclude that Kishi doesn't have that much bargaining power in WSJ. Their strategy to put his name in manga works was not a good idea (it has negative consequences) although illustrated by someone else. And importantly, Japanese readers seem to don't care with his work.

You don't heard people talking about Samurai 8 in Twitter in Japan. When it's about to be cancelled, readers were indifference.

Best for Kishibto do another type of works and probably return working on Naruto much much later on. Much like Toriyama.

 

I have a question. Do you think a public announcement for an apology to the fans for the ending will help Masashi to get him back to their good graces? Or is it too little, too late?

[Phantom_999]

Probably too little too late, that grudge has festered for several years now. Not only that, remember that no refund on the "The Last" movie, even though that wasn't his decision. It was his work with his name on it so I don't think many are willing to forgive that either. It's one thing to REALLY PISS OFF fans over your work, but forcing them to PAY to watch something that bad and they don't even have the option to get a refund? That's beyond "breaking the camel's back", the spine is splintered now.

 

Are the japanese fans really that mad? Boruto is still on both as manga and anime.

 

Except Boruto is being made by someone else now and even it isn't doing so hot. the only saving grace is that it is not even a new series manga wise so it is given more leeway than a new fresh series just trying to stretch it's wings to see if it can fly so it's is spared the axe for now, and as long as a time slot on a TV network permits it and there are no plans to stop the series, the anime isn't going anywhere and believe me many that even bother to watch think they are making the episodes out of desperate pride more than anything. Boruto isn't selling from what I gather, nowhere NEAR what they wanted anyway, with it's target audience being kids since it is their "Saturday morning" cartoon so to speak.

Edited by Phantom_999, 24 April 2020 - 05:35 PM.

[BakeNeko-Chan]

The reason this manga fail was because it has Masashi Kishimoto name in it.
Don't underestimate Japanese readers` sentiment. You treat them bad, they'll stop buying from you.
Consider Arakawa sensei's work after Fullmetal Alchemist. She decided to write a story about farm life --Silver Spoon. Not an action adventure manga like FMA. It's a risky transition, and I can bet you that if Hiromu Arakawa name was not in it, it won't be the 7th best selling manga in Japan in 2012. The name alone warrant her loyal readers to buy the manga, since she was splendid in FMA.
I'm not at all surprised Kishimoto works after Naruto will face a tough challenge to succeed, because of how he handled Naruto.

Feels a bit like comparing apples to oranges though. Arakawa was always a stronger storyteller than Kishimoto, so it feels pretty natural that she would find success post FMA with Silver Spoon and The Heroic Legend of Arslan, it's not the same monumental success, but she's doing well regardless.

By contrast, I feel in hindsight, that Kishimoto just sort of came along with Naruto at the right place and time for it to be popular. He mooched a lot of ideas from better writers (Togashi most obviously) and at the time Shounen Jump was the main avenue of exposure for people outside Japan.

While Naruto was popular in Japan, it was not the most popular, and a lot of it's success can be attributed to an overseas fanbase - for a time Naruto was probably the one of the most recognizable anime/manga franchises to western audiences, besides Dragonball. That's where the concept of 'The Big Three' comes from. Back at the height of those three series running together - One Piece, Naruto, and Bleach - they were the main gateway into anime/manga for a majority of western fans, the term was never in use among Japanese fans, even for the ones aware of it's use overseas, and today, the term is obsolete. SJ is no longer the sole gateway outside Japan, with more and more manga publishers popping up in more and more countries. France now has the biggest market for manga, second to Japan. The medium has become less niche, and The Big Three will never exist again, because the circumstances that created them, and by extension, Kishimoto's unique success, no longer exist.

It's not impossible that Kishimoto will find an audience again, but the cards are not so stacked in his favor anymore.

[RulesofNature]

I don't think even the most humble man in the world would accept a drop that low that quickly, and neither do I believe that the people in WSJ would allow that. He still got two more attempts. They'll let him take them and give him some leeway like they did before...though they probably won't try to hype it up like they did with S8. Going to another magazine preferably the one Yahagi is still in charge of is better.

 

He should have which would have ended it after the Pein arc which was when he only just starting to argue with his editors. Which means he would have resisted nH and went with NS. Would ended around 2008-9 which was when was at it peak popularity internationally. So, if they had done a sequel it probably would have revitalized interest of a crowd that was only starting to wane. Instead of one years later that most have moved on because they were tired of the war arc and the shipping wars.

 

The thing about the downgrade is it gives him a better chance to gauge his audience. If they're reacting positively to the story, it'll show. Like with web novels that are popular enough that they get reworked into light novels, which in turn can lead to a manga adaptation or even an anime. These series rise and fall on the basis of their own merit, with each subsequent adaptation coming with it's own built-in audience. Plus the success on the web level works to attract those who would be interested in serializing it, as these works often end up being lucrative if they can make it to the anime level.

 

As for manga, there's other options. SJ actual has some series that release online rather than the magazine, with collected volumes for the fans (I really love Melt Away Mizore-chan, but the translator hasn't updated in about five months. Shame.). Some online manga offer their chapters free for the first week after release. Following that, people have to pay by the chapter.

 

But really, this is a sign that things are changing within Japanese entertainment. There's alternatives to the old hoops people would have to jump through to be a manga artist. Digitial entertainment is only getting bigger, and by moving to such a format Kishi could be ahead of the curve (somewhat) rather than using outdated practices.

[Bail o' Lies]

I have a question. Do you think a public announcement for an apology to the fans for the ending will help Masashi to get him back to their good graces? Or is it too little, too late?

Before I go on with what I'm about to type; Do you like the Star Wars sequel trilogy? To me what's happening with Star Wars is what happened to Naruto. Yes the fan were pissed off but it was a fire once burnt out leave you with apathy. For Star Wars the fire started with the last jedi and ended with Plan IX. For Naruto the ending lead to confusion that lead to a backlash by the time the last came out that has since petered out into indifference other then a distrust in kishimoto. 

 

Feels a bit like comparing apples to oranges though. Arakawa was always a stronger storyteller than Kishimoto, so it feels pretty natural that she would find success post FMA with Silver Spoon and The Heroic Legend of Arslan, it's not the same monumental success, but she's doing well regardless.

By contrast, I feel in hindsight, that Kishimoto just sort of came along with Naruto at the right place and time for it to be popular. He mooched a lot of ideas from better writers (Togashi most obviously) and at the time Shounen Jump was the main avenue of exposure for people outside Japan.

While Naruto was popular in Japan, it was not the most popular, and a lot of it's success can be attributed to an overseas fanbase - for a time Naruto was probably the one of the most recognizable anime/manga franchises to western audiences, besides Dragonball. That's where the concept of 'The Big Three' comes from. Back at the height of those three series running together - One Piece, Naruto, and Bleach - they were the main gateway into anime/manga for a majority of western fans, the term was never in use among Japanese fans, even for the ones aware of it's use overseas, and today, the term is obsolete. SJ is no longer the sole gateway outside Japan, with more and more manga publishers popping up in more and more countries. France now has the biggest market for manga, second to Japan. The medium has become less niche, and The Big Three will never exist again, because the circumstances that created them, and by extension, Kishimoto's unique success, no longer exist.

It's not impossible that Kishimoto will find an audience again, but the cards are not so stacked in his favor anymore.

Most of Naruto success does come down to luck and right place right time. Naruto hit the states after Dragon Ball Z and all the other 1990's anime were done airing on Toonami, but before mainstream people were moving on from anime completely. Not only that but it really didn't have any true competition since both bleach and one piece were place were they would only get a limited audience. Also Western Animation also hit a drought around the same time frame. So it pretty much became the only anime/cartoon still on air from 2003 till 2008. So all the people that wanted to watch anime/action cartoons had to watch it. Not only that but Naruto hit a place in the heart of entitled millennial kids who identified with him.

 

Now a days, while anime is not on the level of popularity it was during the height of Toonami. There not just Naruto anymore. Attack of Titans, MHA, and One Punch man among others are popular. Also Toonami isn't on the same time slot it once was preventing Boruto from reaching the same demographic, and more importantly its target audiance; kids that didn't watch Naruto. Which among other problems is why it was taken off toonami in October.

 

The thing about the downgrade is it gives him a better chance to gauge his audience. If they're reacting positively to the story, it'll show. Like with web novels that are popular enough that they get reworked into light novels, which in turn can lead to a manga adaptation or even an anime. These series rise and fall on the basis of their own merit, with each subsequent adaptation coming with it's own built-in audience. Plus the success on the web level works to attract those who would be interested in serializing it, as these works often end up being lucrative if they can make it to the anime level.

 

As for manga, there's other options. SJ actual has some series that release online rather than the magazine, with collected volumes for the fans (I really love Melt Away Mizore-chan, but the translator hasn't updated in about five months. Shame.). Some online manga offer their chapters free for the first week after release. Following that, people have to pay by the chapter.

 

But really, this is a sign that things are changing within Japanese entertainment. There's alternatives to the old hoops people would have to jump through to be a manga artist. Digital entertainment is only getting bigger, and by moving to such a format Kishi could be ahead of the curve (somewhat) rather than using outdated practices.

New technology may have made new ways of climbing towards publication, but kishimoto is an old man and is already establish. And again even if he thought of that people around him would tell him its a bad idea because its too much of a downgrade for anyone.

 

There is a difference between a boss deciding to go back to his root and work in the field with everyone else, and standing outside the workplace destitute begging for food.

 

Also kishimoto doesn't really seem a person that really get new technology.

Edited by Bail o' Lies, 04 September 2022 - 05:52 PM.

[Derock]

Before I go on with what I'm about to type; Do you like the Star Wars sequel trilogy? To me what's happening with Star Wars is what happened to Naruto. Yes the fan were pissed off but it was a fire once burnt out leave you with apathy. For Star Wars the fire started with the last jedi and ended with Plan IX. For Naruto the ending lead to confusion that lead to a backlash by the time the last came out that has since petered out into indifference other then a distrust in kishimoto. 

 

 

While I like Star Wars, I don't care for the new trilogy, excluding Rogue One. (and I fell asleep on Solo).  Plus, it ignored the Expanded Universe.  Out of all of the new stuff Disney added (and I don't care for Clone Wars series), I only liked one and that one was from Lego: The Freemakers. That was the only Star Wars spin-off I enjoyed of its entirely, despite being on for 2 seasons.

[Gravenimage]

Are the japanese fans really that mad? Boruto is still on both as manga and anime.

 

Many of the viewers are new and have never seen Naruto. Also I believe Kishi is no longer involved with Boruto even if he's supposed to be the supervisor but we all know he wants nothing to do with it.Though I shouldn't say they're upset more like they're disappointed at him. It was clear as day Kishi was going for NS from the start of the manga before his new editors convinced him to change the ship. NS was so canon to them they would even make events to celebrate the ship even on their birthdays. It was a ship they all saw it coming and they were happy about it. Unfortunately changing the ship means changing the whole story so it would explain why they won't try to read his new manga expecting he will make the same mistake. 

Edited by Gravenimage, 25 April 2020 - 10:17 PM.

[Nostradamus]

To be honest the idea of Kishimoto just redoing the ending is kind of long past since outside a few people most that hated the ending have moved on at this point. i suspect especially in Japan. Even if he revealed what happened I doubt most would really care. 

Depends how it's done. If the marketing is well targeted and not lying at all and of course if the project itself is good and what the fans wanted all along, then even those who moved on will come back and give it a shot, obviously it won't be the same amount of people as before, but a good chunk of them, it would also win new fans.

To me I've said this before, but doing the Infinity Tsukuyomi is at this point way too hard and complicated and it would just confuse people more, however if the restart point is before the last fight between Naruto and Sasuke then I believe that will work. Do the fight properly and have a small build up to it not just rush into it. Imagine a Naruto vs Sasuke fight done well with proper animation. Get Naotoshi Shida to do the animation or someone with his talent and just watch the cash coming in.